From: Miguel Ojeda <miguel.ojeda.sandonis@gmail.com>
To: Greg KH <greg@kroah.com>
Cc: Wedson Almeida Filho <wedsonaf@google.com>,
Jan Kara <jack@suse.cz>,
James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@hansenpartnership.com>,
Julia Lawall <julia.lawall@inria.fr>,
Laurent Pinchart <laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com>,
Linus Walleij <linus.walleij@linaro.org>,
Roland Dreier <roland@kernel.org>,
ksummit@lists.linux.dev
Subject: Re: [TECH TOPIC] Rust for Linux
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 20:00:15 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CANiq72mGRPqZEB2vTPxP4L5nNc-_0s2d=zCMi1BiVZHjPkeBnA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <YOcSo3ilu+ACDnBJ@kroah.com>
On Thu, Jul 8, 2021 at 4:58 PM Greg KH <greg@kroah.com> wrote:
>
> Ok, great, then how would you handle the kref issue where you need an
> external lock to properly handle the reference counting logic in Rust?
> Why is C so "bad" here that we require a lock but Rust would not?
That's the thing: neither C nor Rust need a lock to handle the
refcount itself, i.e. `kref` does not contain a lock, neither `Ref<T>`
does.
A lock is needed when you actually interact with the contents that are
refcounted (see my previous message about `Ref<T>`) -- and this
applies the same way to Rust and C.
What Rust is buying is, though, and this is the critical point, is
that we cannot make a mistake forgetting that we need to have some
form of lock to concurrently mutate things nor forgetting we need to
actually lock it.
Thus, in a way, you could think that the rules in `Doc/kref.txt` would
be now enforced statically -- that is the difference.
> Ok, what "model" would be better? We need a "base object" that has
> solid lifecycle rules. Right now we do have that, but it's just not the
> easiest to use for complex objects where we have multiple objects with
> different lifecycles that all interact together. The v4l example is the
> best, but the input layer also has this type of issue.
The model can be very similar conceptually, but if we can take the
freedom to manage the objects in the Rust side instead of forcing
ourselves to go through C APIs (e.g. `devm_*`, dealing with
self-referential structs, etc.), then things can be way simpler.
Which is why I am asking: so far we have tried hard to reuse the C
APIs and types, but if we can relax that constraint and come up with
our own model (where the Rust side keeps ownership of objects), then
we will likely end up with something better (for the Rust side).
Basically, the idea is doing things in a way that is amenable to
Rust's strengths, so that modules written in Rust are easier to write
and so that we minimize even further the need for `unsafe`.
To be extra clear: it is not that Rust cannot use/express/wrap those C
patterns -- the key is that some of those C patterns cannot be
statically proven to be correct by the Rust compiler (and thus require
trusting ourselves to get them right, like in C).
Cheers,
Miguel
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-07-08 18:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 202+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-06-25 22:09 [TECH TOPIC] Rust for Linux Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-05 23:51 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 4:30 ` Leon Romanovsky
2021-07-06 9:55 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 10:16 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-06 17:59 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 18:36 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 19:12 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 21:32 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 14:10 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-07 15:28 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 15:50 ` Andrew Lunn
2021-07-07 16:34 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 16:55 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-07 17:54 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 10:22 ` Leon Romanovsky
2021-07-06 14:30 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 14:32 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 15:03 ` Sasha Levin
2021-07-06 15:33 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 15:42 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-06 16:09 ` Mike Rapoport
2021-07-06 18:29 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 18:38 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-06 19:45 ` Steven Rostedt
2021-07-06 19:59 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 18:53 ` Sasha Levin
2021-07-06 21:50 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 4:57 ` Leon Romanovsky
2021-07-07 13:39 ` Alexandre Belloni
2021-07-07 13:50 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 18:26 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 19:11 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 19:13 ` Johannes Berg
2021-07-06 19:43 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 10:20 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-06 14:55 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 15:01 ` Sasha Levin
2021-07-06 15:36 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-09 10:02 ` Marco Elver
2021-07-09 16:02 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 18:09 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 14:24 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-06 14:33 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-06 14:56 ` Leon Romanovsky
2021-07-06 15:29 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 4:38 ` Leon Romanovsky
2021-07-06 20:00 ` Roland Dreier
2021-07-06 20:36 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-06 22:00 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-07 7:27 ` Julia Lawall
2021-07-07 7:45 ` Greg KH
2021-07-07 7:52 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-07 13:49 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 14:08 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-07 15:15 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 15:44 ` Greg KH
2021-07-07 17:01 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-07 17:20 ` Greg KH
2021-07-07 19:19 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-07 20:38 ` Jan Kara
2021-07-07 23:09 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-08 6:11 ` Greg KH
2021-07-08 13:36 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-08 18:51 ` Greg KH
2021-07-08 19:31 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-08 19:35 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 21:56 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-08 19:49 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-08 20:34 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 22:13 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-09 7:24 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-19 12:24 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-19 13:15 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-19 14:02 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-19 14:13 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-19 21:32 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-19 21:33 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-20 1:46 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-20 6:43 ` Johannes Berg
2021-07-19 14:43 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-19 18:24 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 18:47 ` Steven Rostedt
2021-07-19 14:54 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 17:32 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-19 21:31 ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-07-19 17:37 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 16:02 ` Vegard Nossum
2021-07-19 17:45 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 17:54 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 18:06 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-19 19:37 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-19 21:09 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-20 23:54 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-21 1:33 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-21 1:42 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-21 13:54 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-21 14:13 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-21 14:19 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-22 11:33 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-23 0:45 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-21 4:39 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-23 1:04 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-21 4:23 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-23 1:13 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-19 22:57 ` Alexandre Belloni
2021-07-20 7:15 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-20 9:39 ` Alexandre Belloni
2021-07-20 12:10 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 13:53 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-19 14:42 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-19 22:16 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-20 1:20 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-20 13:21 ` Andrew Lunn
2021-07-20 13:38 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-20 14:04 ` Andrew Lunn
2021-07-20 13:55 ` Greg KH
2021-07-20 1:21 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-20 16:00 ` Mark Brown
2021-07-20 22:42 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-19 14:43 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-19 15:15 ` Andrew Lunn
2021-07-19 15:43 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-09 7:03 ` Viresh Kumar
2021-07-09 17:06 ` Mark Brown
2021-07-09 17:43 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-10 9:53 ` Jonathan Cameron
2021-07-10 20:09 ` Kees Cook
2021-07-08 13:55 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 14:58 ` Greg KH
2021-07-08 15:02 ` Mark Brown
2021-07-08 16:38 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-08 18:01 ` Greg KH
2021-07-08 18:00 ` Miguel Ojeda [this message]
2021-07-08 18:44 ` Greg KH
2021-07-08 23:09 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 7:20 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 13:41 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-08 13:43 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 13:54 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-08 14:16 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 14:24 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-09 7:04 ` Jerome Glisse
2021-07-08 14:04 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 14:18 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 14:28 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 14:33 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 14:35 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-09 11:55 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-08 16:07 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-07 20:58 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 21:47 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-07 22:44 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 17:01 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 10:50 ` Mark Brown
2021-07-07 10:56 ` Julia Lawall
2021-07-07 11:27 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-07 11:34 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-07 12:20 ` Greg KH
2021-07-07 12:38 ` James Bottomley
2021-07-07 12:45 ` Greg KH
2021-07-07 17:17 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-08 6:49 ` cdev/devm_* issues (was Re: [TECH TOPIC] Rust for Linux) Greg KH
2021-07-08 8:23 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-08 23:06 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-09 0:02 ` Dan Williams
2021-07-09 16:53 ` Wedson Almeida Filho
2021-07-13 8:59 ` Linus Walleij
[not found] ` <CAHp75VfW7PxAyU=eYPNWFU_oUY=aStz-4W5gX87KSo402YhMXQ@mail.gmail.com>
2021-07-21 13:46 ` Linus Walleij
2021-07-21 15:49 ` Andy Shevchenko
2021-07-10 7:09 ` Dan Carpenter
2021-07-12 13:42 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2021-07-15 9:54 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-07-21 9:08 ` Dan Carpenter
2021-07-22 9:56 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-07-22 10:09 ` Dan Carpenter
2021-07-08 9:08 ` [TECH TOPIC] Rust for Linux Mauro Carvalho Chehab
2021-07-10 16:42 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-10 17:18 ` Andy Lutomirski
2021-07-07 15:17 ` Mark Brown
2021-07-06 21:45 ` Bart Van Assche
2021-07-06 23:08 ` Stephen Hemminger
2021-07-07 2:41 ` Bart Van Assche
2021-07-07 18:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-07-07 20:32 ` Bart Van Assche
2021-07-07 20:39 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-07-07 21:40 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-08 7:22 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-07-07 21:02 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-07 22:11 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 22:43 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-07 23:21 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 23:40 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-08 0:27 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-08 0:56 ` Laurent Pinchart
2021-07-08 6:26 ` Alexey Dobriyan
2021-07-06 19:05 ` Bart Van Assche
2021-07-06 19:27 ` Miguel Ojeda
2021-07-07 15:48 ` Steven Rostedt
2021-07-07 16:44 ` Miguel Ojeda
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2023-08-07 10:03 Miguel Ojeda
2024-06-22 19:20 Miguel Ojeda
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to='CANiq72mGRPqZEB2vTPxP4L5nNc-_0s2d=zCMi1BiVZHjPkeBnA@mail.gmail.com' \
--to=miguel.ojeda.sandonis@gmail.com \
--cc=James.Bottomley@hansenpartnership.com \
--cc=greg@kroah.com \
--cc=jack@suse.cz \
--cc=julia.lawall@inria.fr \
--cc=ksummit@lists.linux.dev \
--cc=laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com \
--cc=linus.walleij@linaro.org \
--cc=roland@kernel.org \
--cc=wedsonaf@google.com \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).