From: Elizabeth Figura <zfigura@codeweavers.com>
To: Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>
Cc: "Andy Lutomirski" <luto@kernel.org>,
wine-devel@winehq.org, "Arnd Bergmann" <arnd@arndb.de>,
"Greg Kroah-Hartman" <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-api@vger.kernel.org,
"André Almeida" <andrealmeid@igalia.com>,
"Wolfram Sang" <wsa@kernel.org>,
"Peter Zijlstra" <peterz@infradead.org>,
"Alexandre Julliard" <julliard@winehq.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 1/9] ntsync: Introduce the ntsync driver and character device.
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2024 15:45:49 -0600 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <1992245.CNCIqqkGal@camazotz> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CALCETrVZFhH-dKCFpxj=nML2cn1EBc5wWHj9zhKK07TLSSqnDA@mail.gmail.com>
On Thursday, 25 January 2024 12:55:04 CST Andy Lutomirski wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 7:42 PM Elizabeth Figura
> <zfigura@codeweavers.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Wednesday, 24 January 2024 16:56:23 CST Elizabeth Figura wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, 24 January 2024 15:26:15 CST Andy Lutomirski wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 4:59 PM Elizabeth Figura
> > > > <zfigura@codeweavers.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ntsync uses a misc device as the simplest and least intrusive uAPI
> > > > > interface.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Each file description on the device represents an isolated NT instance,
> > > > > intended to correspond to a single NT virtual machine.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If I understand this text right, and if I understood the code right,
> > > > you're saying that each open instance of the device represents an
> > > > entire universe of NT synchronization objects, and no security or
> > > > isolation is possible between those objects. For single-process use,
> > > > this seems fine. But fork() will be a bit odd (although NT doesn't
> > > > really believe in fork, so maybe this is fine).
> > > >
> > > > Except that NT has *named* semaphores and such. And I'm pretty sure
> > > > I've written GUI programs that use named synchronization objects (IIRC
> > > > they were events, and this was a *very* common pattern, regularly
> > > > discussed in MSDN, usenet, etc) to detect whether another instance of
> > > > the program is running. And this all works on real Windows because
> > > > sessions have sufficiently separated namespaces, and the security all
> > > > works out about as any other security on Windows, etc. But
> > > > implementing *that* on top of this
> > > > file-description-plus-integer-equals-object will be fundamentally
> > > > quite subject to one buggy program completely clobbering someone
> > > > else's state.
> > > >
> > > > Would it make sense and scale appropriately for an NT synchronization
> > > > *object* to be a Linux open file description? Then SCM_RIGHTS could
> > > > pass them around, an RPC server could manage *named* objects, and
> > > > they'd generally work just like other "Object Manager" objects like,
> > > > say, files.
> > >
> > >
> > > It's a sensible concern. I think when I discussed this with Alexandre
> > > Julliard (the Wine maintainer, CC'd) the conclusion was this wasn't
> > > something we were concerned about.
> > >
> > > While the current model *does* allow for processes to arbitrarily mess
> > > with each other, accidentally or not, I think we're not concerned with
> > > the scope of that than we are about implementing a whole scheduler in
> > > user space.
> > >
> > > For one, you can't corrupt the wineserver state this way—wineserver
> > > being sort of like a dedicated process that handles many of the things
> > > that a kernel would, and so sometimes needs to set or reset events, or
> > > perform NTSYNC_IOC_KILL_MUTEX, but never relies on ntsync object state.
> > > Whereas trying to implement a scheduler in user space would involve the
> > > wineserver taking locks, and hence other processes could deadlock.
> > >
> > > For two, it's probably a lot harder to mess with that internal state
> > > accidentally.
> > >
> > > [There is also a potential problem where some broken applications
> > > create a million (literally) sync objects. Making these into files runs
> > > into NOFILE. We did specifically push distributions and systemd to
> > > increase those limits because an older solution *did* use eventfds and
> > > *did* run into those limits. Since that push was successful I don't
> > > know if this is *actually* a concern anymore, but avoiding files is
> > > probably not a bad thing either.]
> >
> > Of course, looking at it from a kernel maintainer's perspective, it wouldn't
> > be insane to do this anyway. If we at some point do start to care about cross-
> > process isolation in this way, or if another NT emulator wants to use this
> > interface and does care about cross-process isolation, it'll be necessary. At
> > least it'd make sense to make them separate files even if we don't implement
> > granular permission handling just yet.
>
> I'm not convinced that any complexity at all beyond using individual
> files is needed for granular permission handling. Unless something
> actually needs permission bits on different files pointing at the same
> sync object (which I believe NT supports, but it's sort of an odd
> concept and I'm not immediately convinced that anything uses it),
> merely having individual files ought to do the trick. Handling of who
> has permission to open a given named object can live in a daemon, and
> I'd guess that Wine even already implements this.
This is mostly correct. NT has file descriptors and descriptions (the
former is called a "handle"), though unlike Unix access bits are
specific to the *descriptor* (handle). I don't know if anything uses
it, but we do currently implement that basic functionality, so I can't
say that nothing does either.
So inasmuch as access to someone else's object is a concern, access to
your object with bits you don't have permission for could be a concern
along the same lines. However, from conversation with Alexandre I
believe it'd be fine to just implement those checks in user space.
> And keeping everything together gives me flashbacks of Windows 95 and
> Mac OS pre-X. Sure, in principle the software wasn't malicious, but
> there was no shortage whatsoever of buggy crap out there, and systems
> were quite unstable. Even just:
>
> CreateSemaphore();
> fork();
> sleep a few seconds;
> exit();
>
> seems like it could corrupt the shared namespace world. (Obviously no
> one would ever do that, right?)
>
> Also, handle leaks:
>
> while(true) {
> make a subprocess, which creates a semaphore and crashes;
> }
For whatever it's worth, this particular thing wouldn't be a concern;
Wine's "kernel" daemon already has to detect when a process dies and
close all its outstanding handles.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2024-01-25 21:45 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 39+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2024-01-24 0:40 [RFC PATCH 0/9] NT synchronization primitive driver Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 0:40 ` [RFC PATCH 1/9] ntsync: Introduce the ntsync driver and character device Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 7:38 ` Arnd Bergmann
2024-01-24 17:51 ` Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 21:26 ` Andy Lutomirski
2024-01-24 22:56 ` Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-25 3:42 ` Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-25 16:47 ` Arnd Bergmann
2024-01-25 18:21 ` Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-25 18:55 ` Andy Lutomirski
2024-01-25 21:45 ` Elizabeth Figura [this message]
2024-01-25 7:41 ` Alexandre Julliard
2024-01-24 0:40 ` [RFC PATCH 2/9] ntsync: Reserve a minor device number and ioctl range Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 0:54 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2024-01-24 3:43 ` Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 12:32 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2024-01-24 17:59 ` Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 0:40 ` [RFC PATCH 3/9] ntsync: Introduce NTSYNC_IOC_CREATE_SEM and NTSYNC_IOC_DELETE Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 1:14 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2024-01-24 3:35 ` Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 0:40 ` [RFC PATCH 4/9] ntsync: Introduce NTSYNC_IOC_PUT_SEM Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-25 8:59 ` Nikolay Borisov
2024-01-24 0:40 ` [RFC PATCH 5/9] ntsync: Introduce NTSYNC_IOC_WAIT_ANY Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 7:56 ` Arnd Bergmann
2024-01-24 18:02 ` Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 19:52 ` Arnd Bergmann
2024-01-24 22:28 ` Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-25 17:02 ` Arnd Bergmann
2024-01-25 18:30 ` Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 0:40 ` [RFC PATCH 6/9] ntsync: Introduce NTSYNC_IOC_WAIT_ALL Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 0:40 ` [RFC PATCH 7/9] ntsync: Introduce NTSYNC_IOC_CREATE_MUTEX Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 0:40 ` [RFC PATCH 8/9] ntsync: Introduce NTSYNC_IOC_PUT_MUTEX Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 7:42 ` Arnd Bergmann
2024-01-24 18:03 ` Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 19:53 ` Arnd Bergmann
2024-01-24 0:40 ` [RFC PATCH 9/9] ntsync: Introduce NTSYNC_IOC_KILL_OWNER Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 0:59 ` [RFC PATCH 0/9] NT synchronization primitive driver Greg Kroah-Hartman
2024-01-24 1:37 ` Elizabeth Figura
2024-01-24 12:29 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
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