From: Kent Overstreet <kent.overstreet@linux.dev>
To: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
Cc: "Philipp Stanner" <pstanner@redhat.com>,
"Boqun Feng" <boqun.feng@gmail.com>,
rust-for-linux@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
linux-arch@vger.kernel.org, llvm@lists.linux.dev,
"Miguel Ojeda" <ojeda@kernel.org>,
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"Wedson Almeida Filho" <wedsonaf@gmail.com>,
"Gary Guo" <gary@garyguo.net>,
"Björn Roy Baron" <bjorn3_gh@protonmail.com>,
"Benno Lossin" <benno.lossin@proton.me>,
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"Alice Ryhl" <aliceryhl@google.com>,
"Alan Stern" <stern@rowland.harvard.edu>,
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"Will Deacon" <will@kernel.org>,
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"David Howells" <dhowells@redhat.com>,
"Jade Alglave" <j.alglave@ucl.ac.uk>,
"Luc Maranget" <luc.maranget@inria.fr>,
"Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@kernel.org>,
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"Daniel Lustig" <dlustig@nvidia.com>,
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elver@google.com, "Mark Rutland" <mark.rutland@arm.com>,
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"Ingo Molnar" <mingo@redhat.com>,
"Borislav Petkov" <bp@alien8.de>,
"Dave Hansen" <dave.hansen@linux.intel.com>,
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linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [WIP 0/3] Memory model and atomic API in Rust
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2024 17:14:41 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <gewmacbbjxwsn4h54w2jfvbiq5iwr2zdm56pc3pv3rctxyd4lt@sqqa544ezmez> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAHk-=wgLGWBXvNODAkzkVHEj7zrrnTq_hzMft62nKNkaL89ZGQ@mail.gmail.com>
On Mon, Mar 25, 2024 at 12:44:34PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 at 11:59, Kent Overstreet <kent.overstreet@linux.dev> wrote:
> >
> > To be fair, "volatile" dates from an era when we didn't have the haziest
> > understanding of what a working memory model for C would look like or
> > why we'd even want one.
>
> I don't disagree, but I find it very depressing that now that we *do*
> know about memory models etc, the C++ memory model basically doubled
> down on the same "object" model.
>
> > The way the kernel uses volatile in e.g. READ_ONCE() is fully in line
> > with modern thinking, just done with the tools available at the time. A
> > more modern version would be just
> >
> > __atomic_load_n(ptr, __ATOMIC_RELAXED)
>
> Yes. Again, that's the *right* model in many ways, where you mark the
> *access*, not the variable. You make it completely and utterly clear
> that this is a very explicit access to memory.
>
> But that's not what C++ actually did. They went down the same old
> "volatile object" road, and instead of marking the access, they mark
> the object, and the way you do the above is
>
> std::atomic_int value;
>
> and then you just access 'value' and magic happens.
>
> EXACTLY the same way that
>
> volatile int value;
>
> works, in other words. With exactly the same downsides.
Yeah that's crap. Unfortunate too, because this does need to be a type
system thing and we have all the tools to do it correctly now.
What we need is for loads and stores to be explict, and that absolutely
can and should be a type system thing.
In Rust terminology, what we want is
Volatile<T>
where T is any type that fits in a machine word, and the only operations
it supports are get(), set(), xchg() and cmpxchG().
You DO NOT want it to be possible to transparantly use Volatile<T> in
place of a regular T - in exactly the same way as an atomic_t can't be
used in place of a regular integer.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2024-03-25 21:14 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 76+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2024-03-22 23:38 [WIP 0/3] Memory model and atomic API in Rust Boqun Feng
2024-03-22 23:38 ` [WIP 1/3] rust: Introduce atomic module Boqun Feng
2024-03-22 23:52 ` Andrew Lunn
2024-03-23 0:03 ` Boqun Feng
2024-03-23 19:13 ` Miguel Ojeda
2024-03-23 19:30 ` Boqun Feng
2024-03-23 9:58 ` Alice Ryhl
2024-03-23 14:10 ` Andrew Lunn
2024-03-23 19:09 ` Miguel Ojeda
2024-03-26 5:56 ` Trevor Gross
2024-03-22 23:38 ` [WIP 2/3] rust: atomic: Add ARM64 fetch_add_relaxed() Boqun Feng
2024-03-22 23:38 ` [WIP 3/3] rust: atomic: Add fetch_sub_release() Boqun Feng
2024-03-22 23:57 ` [WIP 0/3] Memory model and atomic API in Rust Kent Overstreet
2024-03-23 0:12 ` Linus Torvalds
2024-03-23 0:21 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-23 0:36 ` Linus Torvalds
2024-03-23 2:07 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-23 2:26 ` Boqun Feng
2024-03-23 2:33 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-23 2:57 ` Boqun Feng
2024-03-23 3:10 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-23 3:51 ` Boqun Feng
2024-03-23 4:16 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-25 13:56 ` Philipp Stanner
2024-03-25 17:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2024-03-25 18:59 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-25 19:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2024-03-25 21:14 ` Kent Overstreet [this message]
2024-03-25 21:37 ` Boqun Feng
2024-03-25 22:09 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-25 22:38 ` Boqun Feng
2024-03-25 23:02 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-25 23:41 ` Boqun Feng
2024-03-26 0:05 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2024-03-26 0:36 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-26 1:35 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2024-03-26 3:28 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-26 2:51 ` Boqun Feng
2024-03-26 3:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2024-03-26 14:35 ` Dr. David Alan Gilbert
2024-03-27 16:16 ` comex
2024-03-27 18:50 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-27 19:07 ` Linus Torvalds
2024-03-27 19:41 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-27 20:45 ` Linus Torvalds
2024-03-27 21:41 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-27 22:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2024-03-27 23:35 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-27 21:21 ` Boqun Feng
2024-03-27 21:49 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-27 22:26 ` Boqun Feng
2024-03-27 21:56 ` comex
2024-03-27 22:02 ` comex
2024-04-05 17:13 ` Philipp Stanner
2024-04-08 16:02 ` Matthew Wilcox
2024-04-08 16:55 ` Paul E. McKenney
2024-04-08 17:03 ` Matthew Wilcox
2024-04-08 18:47 ` Paul E. McKenney
2024-04-09 0:58 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-04-09 4:47 ` Paul E. McKenney
2024-04-08 17:01 ` Linus Torvalds
2024-04-08 18:14 ` Al Viro
2024-04-08 20:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2024-03-23 21:40 ` comex
2024-03-24 15:22 ` Alan Stern
2024-03-24 17:37 ` comex
2024-03-23 0:15 ` Boqun Feng
2024-03-23 0:49 ` Boqun Feng
2024-03-23 1:42 ` Kent Overstreet
2024-03-23 14:29 ` Andrew Lunn
2024-03-23 14:41 ` Boqun Feng
2024-03-23 14:55 ` Boqun Feng
2024-03-25 10:44 ` Mark Rutland
2024-03-25 20:59 ` Boqun Feng
2024-04-09 10:50 ` Peter Zijlstra
2024-04-16 18:12 ` Boqun Feng
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