From: Mingwei Zhang <mizhang@google.com>
To: Sean Christopherson <seanjc@google.com>
Cc: Dapeng Mi <dapeng1.mi@linux.intel.com>,
Kan Liang <kan.liang@linux.intel.com>,
maobibo <maobibo@loongson.cn>,
Xiong Zhang <xiong.y.zhang@linux.intel.com>,
pbonzini@redhat.com, peterz@infradead.org, kan.liang@intel.com,
zhenyuw@linux.intel.com, jmattson@google.com,
kvm@vger.kernel.org, linux-perf-users@vger.kernel.org,
linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, zhiyuan.lv@intel.com,
eranian@google.com, irogers@google.com, samantha.alt@intel.com,
like.xu.linux@gmail.com, chao.gao@intel.com
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 23/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Implement the save/restore of PMU state for Intel CPU
Date: Wed, 1 May 2024 10:43:58 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAL715WJbYNqm2SXiTgqWHs34DtRfdFE7Hx48X_4ASHyQXeaPzA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Zi_cle1-5SZK2558@google.com>
On Mon, Apr 29, 2024 at 10:44 AM Sean Christopherson <seanjc@google.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Apr 27, 2024, Mingwei Zhang wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 27, 2024 at 5:59 PM Mi, Dapeng <dapeng1.mi@linux.intel.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On 4/27/2024 11:04 AM, Mingwei Zhang wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 12:46 PM Sean Christopherson <seanjc@google.com> wrote:
> > > >> On Fri, Apr 26, 2024, Kan Liang wrote:
> > > >>>> Optimization 4
> > > >>>> allows the host side to immediately profiling this part instead of
> > > >>>> waiting for vcpu to reach to PMU context switch locations. Doing so
> > > >>>> will generate more accurate results.
> > > >>> If so, I think the 4 is a must to have. Otherwise, it wouldn't honer the
> > > >>> definition of the exclude_guest. Without 4, it brings some random blind
> > > >>> spots, right?
> > > >> +1, I view it as a hard requirement. It's not an optimization, it's about
> > > >> accuracy and functional correctness.
> > > > Well. Does it have to be a _hard_ requirement? no?
>
> Assuming I understand how perf_event_open() works, which may be a fairly big
> assumption, for me, yes, this is a hard requirement.
>
> > > > The irq handler triggered by "perf record -a" could just inject a
> > > > "state". Instead of immediately preempting the guest PMU context, perf
> > > > subsystem could allow KVM defer the context switch when it reaches the
> > > > next PMU context switch location.
>
> FWIW, forcefully interrupting the guest isn't a hard requirement, but practically
> speaking I think that will yield the simplest, most robust implementation.
>
> > > > This is the same as the preemption kernel logic. Do you want me to
> > > > stop the work immediately? Yes (if you enable preemption), or No, let
> > > > me finish my job and get to the scheduling point.
>
> Not really. Task scheduling is by its nature completely exclusive, i.e. it's
> not possible to concurrently run multiple tasks on a single logical CPU. Given
> a single CPU, to run task B, task A _must_ be scheduled out.
>
> That is not the case here. Profiling the host with exclude_guest=1 isn't mutually
> exclusive with the guest using the PMU. There's obviously the additional overhead
> of switching PMU context, but the two uses themselves are not mutually exclusive.
>
> And more importantly, perf_event_open() already has well-established ABI where it
> can install events across CPUs. And when perf_event_open() returns, userspace can
> rely on the event being active and counting (assuming it wasn't disabled by default).
>
> > > > Implementing this might be more difficult to debug. That's my real
> > > > concern. If we do not enable preemption, the PMU context switch will
> > > > only happen at the 2 pairs of locations. If we enable preemption, it
> > > > could happen at any time.
>
> Yes and no. I agree that swapping guest/host state from IRQ context could lead
> to hard to debug issues, but NOT doing so could also lead to hard to debug issues.
> And even worse, those issues would likely be unique to specific kernel and/or
> system configurations.
>
> E.g. userspace creates an event, but sometimes it randomly doesn't count correctly.
> Is the problem simply that it took a while for KVM to get to a scheduling point,
> or is there a race lurking? And what happens if the vCPU is the only runnable task
> on its pCPU, i.e. never gets scheduled out?
>
> Mix in all of the possible preemption and scheduler models, and other sources of
> forced rescheduling, e.g. RCU, and the number of factors to account for becomes
> quite terrifying.
>
> > > IMO I don't prefer to add a switch to enable/disable the preemption. I
> > > think current implementation is already complicated enough and
> > > unnecessary to introduce an new parameter to confuse users. Furthermore,
> > > the switch could introduce an uncertainty and may mislead the perf user
> > > to read the perf stats incorrectly.
>
> +1000.
>
> > > As for debug, it won't bring any difference as long as no host event is created.
> > >
> > That's ok. It is about opinions and brainstorming. Adding a parameter
> > to disable preemption is from the cloud usage perspective. The
> > conflict of opinions is which one you prioritize: guest PMU or the
> > host PMU? If you stand on the guest vPMU usage perspective, do you
> > want anyone on the host to shoot a profiling command and generate
> > turbulence? no. If you stand on the host PMU perspective and you want
> > to profile VMM/KVM, you definitely want accuracy and no delay at all.
>
> Hard no from me. Attempting to support two fundamentally different models means
> twice the maintenance burden. The *best* case scenario is that usage is roughly
> a 50/50 spit. The worst case scenario is that the majority of users favor one
> model over the other, thus resulting in extremely limited tested of the minority
> model.
>
> KVM already has this problem with scheduler preemption models, and it's painful.
> The overwhelming majority of KVM users run non-preemptible kernels, and so our
> test coverage for preemtible kernels is abysmal.
>
> E.g. the TDP MMU effectively had a fatal flaw with preemptible kernels that went
> unnoticed for many kernel releases[*], until _another_ bug introduced with dynamic
> preemption models resulted in users running code that was supposed to be specific
> to preemtible kernels.
>
> [* https://lore.kernel.org/kvm/ef81ff36-64bb-4cfe-ae9b-e3acf47bff24@proxmox.com
>
I hear your voice, Sean.
In our cloud, we have a host-level profiling going on for all cores
periodically. It will be profiling X seconds every Y minute. Having
the host-level profiling using exclude_guest is fine, but stopping the
host-level profiling is a no no. Tweaking the X and Y is theoretically
possible, but highly likely out of the scope of virtualization. Now,
some of the VMs might be actively using vPMU at the same time. How can
we properly ensure the guest vPMU has consistent performance? Instead
of letting the VM suffer from the high overhead of PMU for X seconds
of every Y minute?
Any thought/help is appreciated. I see the logic of having preemption
there for correctness of the profiling on the host level. Doing this,
however, negatively impacts the above business usage.
One of the things on top of the mind is that: there seems to be no way
for the perf subsystem to express this: "no, your host-level profiling
is not interested in profiling the KVM_RUN loop when our guest vPMU is
actively running".
Thanks.
-Mingwei
-Mingwei
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2024-05-01 17:44 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 182+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2024-01-26 8:54 [RFC PATCH 00/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Introduce passthrough vPM Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 01/41] perf: x86/intel: Support PERF_PMU_CAP_VPMU_PASSTHROUGH Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 17:04 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 17:21 ` Liang, Kan
2024-04-11 17:24 ` Jim Mattson
2024-04-11 17:46 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 19:13 ` Liang, Kan
2024-04-11 20:43 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 21:04 ` Liang, Kan
2024-04-11 19:32 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 02/41] perf: Support guest enter/exit interfaces Xiong Zhang
2024-03-20 16:40 ` Raghavendra Rao Ananta
2024-03-20 17:12 ` Liang, Kan
2024-04-11 18:06 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 19:53 ` Liang, Kan
2024-04-12 19:17 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-12 20:56 ` Liang, Kan
2024-04-15 16:03 ` Liang, Kan
2024-04-16 5:34 ` Zhang, Xiong Y
2024-04-16 12:48 ` Liang, Kan
2024-04-17 9:42 ` Zhang, Xiong Y
2024-04-18 16:11 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-19 1:37 ` Zhang, Xiong Y
2024-04-26 4:09 ` Zhang, Xiong Y
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 03/41] perf: Set exclude_guest onto nmi_watchdog Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 18:56 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 04/41] perf: core/x86: Add support to register a new vector for PMI handling Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 17:10 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 19:05 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-12 3:56 ` Zhang, Xiong Y
2024-04-13 1:17 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 05/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Register PMI handler for passthrough PMU Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 19:07 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-12 5:44 ` Zhang, Xiong Y
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 06/41] perf: x86: Add function to switch PMI handler Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 19:17 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 19:34 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-12 6:03 ` Zhang, Xiong Y
2024-04-12 5:57 ` Zhang, Xiong Y
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 07/41] perf/x86: Add interface to reflect virtual LVTPC_MASK bit onto HW Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 19:21 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-12 6:17 ` Zhang, Xiong Y
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 08/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Add get virtual LVTPC_MASK bit function Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 19:22 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 09/41] perf: core/x86: Forbid PMI handler when guest own PMU Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 19:26 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 10/41] perf: core/x86: Plumb passthrough PMU capability from x86_pmu to x86_pmu_cap Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 11/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Introduce enable_passthrough_pmu module parameter and propage to KVM instance Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 20:54 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 21:03 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 12/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Plumb through passthrough PMU to vcpu for Intel CPUs Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 20:57 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 13/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Add a helper to check if passthrough PMU is enabled Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 14/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Allow RDPMC pass through Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 15/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Manage MSR interception for IA32_PERF_GLOBAL_CTRL Xiong Zhang
2024-01-29 5:53 ` kernel test robot
2024-04-11 21:21 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 22:30 ` Jim Mattson
2024-04-11 23:27 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-13 2:10 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 16/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Create a function prototype to disable MSR interception Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 17/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Implement pmu function for Intel CPU " Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 18/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Intercept full-width GP counter MSRs by checking with perf capabilities Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 21:23 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 21:50 ` Jim Mattson
2024-04-12 16:01 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 19/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Whitelist PMU MSRs for passthrough PMU Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 20/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Introduce PMU operation prototypes for save/restore PMU context Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 21/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Introduce function prototype for Intel CPU to " Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 22/41] x86: Introduce MSR_CORE_PERF_GLOBAL_STATUS_SET for passthrough PMU Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 23/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Implement the save/restore of PMU state for Intel CPU Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 21:26 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-13 2:29 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-11 21:44 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 22:19 ` Jim Mattson
2024-04-11 23:31 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-13 3:19 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-13 3:03 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-13 3:34 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-13 4:25 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-15 6:06 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-15 10:04 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-15 16:44 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-15 17:38 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-15 17:54 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-15 22:45 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-22 2:14 ` maobibo
2024-04-22 17:01 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-23 1:01 ` maobibo
2024-04-23 2:44 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-23 2:53 ` maobibo
2024-04-23 3:13 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-23 3:26 ` maobibo
2024-04-23 3:59 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-23 3:55 ` maobibo
2024-04-23 4:23 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-23 6:08 ` maobibo
2024-04-23 6:45 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-23 7:10 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-23 8:24 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-23 8:51 ` maobibo
2024-04-23 16:50 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-23 12:12 ` maobibo
2024-04-23 17:02 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-24 1:07 ` maobibo
2024-04-24 8:18 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-24 15:00 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-25 3:55 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-25 4:24 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-25 16:13 ` Liang, Kan
2024-04-25 20:16 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-25 20:43 ` Liang, Kan
2024-04-25 21:46 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-26 1:46 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-26 3:12 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-26 4:02 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-26 4:46 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-26 14:09 ` Liang, Kan
2024-04-26 18:41 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-26 19:06 ` Liang, Kan
2024-04-26 19:46 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-27 3:04 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-28 0:58 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-28 6:01 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-29 17:44 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-05-01 17:43 ` Mingwei Zhang [this message]
2024-05-01 18:00 ` Liang, Kan
2024-05-01 20:36 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-29 13:08 ` Liang, Kan
2024-04-26 13:53 ` Liang, Kan
2024-04-26 1:50 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-04-18 21:21 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-18 21:41 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-19 1:02 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 24/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Zero out unexposed Counters/Selectors to avoid information leakage Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 21:36 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 21:56 ` Jim Mattson
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 25/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Introduce macro PMU_CAP_PERF_METRICS Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 26/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Add host_perf_cap field in kvm_caps to record host PMU capability Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 21:49 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 27/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Clear PERF_METRICS MSR for guest Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 21:50 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-13 3:29 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 28/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Switch IA32_PERF_GLOBAL_CTRL at VM boundary Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 21:54 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 22:10 ` Jim Mattson
2024-04-11 22:54 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 23:08 ` Jim Mattson
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 29/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Exclude existing vLBR logic from the passthrough PMU Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 30/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Switch PMI handler at KVM context switch boundary Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 31/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Call perf_guest_enter() at PMU context switch Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 32/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Add support for PMU context switch at VM-exit/enter Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 33/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Make check_pmu_event_filter() an exported function Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 34/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Intercept EVENT_SELECT MSR Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 21:55 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 35/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Allow writing to event selector for GP counters if event is allowed Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 36/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Intercept FIXED_CTR_CTRL MSR Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 21:56 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 37/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Allow writing to fixed counter selector if counter is exposed Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 22:03 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-13 4:12 ` Mi, Dapeng
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 38/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Introduce PMU helper to increment counter Xiong Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 39/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Implement emulated counter increment for passthrough PMU Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 23:12 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 23:17 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 40/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Separate passthrough PMU logic in set/get_msr() from non-passthrough vPMU Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 23:18 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-18 21:54 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-01-26 8:54 ` [RFC PATCH 41/41] KVM: nVMX: Add nested virtualization support for passthrough PMU Xiong Zhang
2024-04-11 23:21 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 17:03 ` [RFC PATCH 00/41] KVM: x86/pmu: Introduce passthrough vPM Sean Christopherson
2024-04-12 2:19 ` Zhang, Xiong Y
2024-04-12 18:32 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-15 1:06 ` Zhang, Xiong Y
2024-04-15 15:05 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-16 5:11 ` Zhang, Xiong Y
2024-04-18 20:46 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-18 21:52 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-19 19:14 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-19 22:02 ` Mingwei Zhang
2024-04-11 23:25 ` Sean Christopherson
2024-04-11 23:56 ` Mingwei Zhang
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